Faith in Real Life Ep. 011 - Kevin Harney - From Atheism to Organic Discipleship

This episode explores the transformative power of organic discipleship and the importance of cultivating a relationship with Jesus that leads to outreach and community engagement. Kevin Harney shares his personal journey and emphasizes the seven markers of spiritual growth essential for every believer.

• Kevin Harney's testimony of faith
• The definition of organic discipleship
• Importance of personal transformation
• Understanding the fruit of the Spirit 
• The significance of community in growth
• Seven markers of spiritual growth discussed
• Addressing the challenges of church growth
• Practical advice for families in discipleship 
• Encouraging members to embrace new believers 
• Resources available for spiritual growth 

If you're ready to take your faith to the next level, visit organicoutreach.org for invaluable resources and support in your journey!

Chapters

• 0:01 Meet Kevin Harney
• 11:36 Empowering Evangelism and Discipleship
• 16:05 Organic Discipleship
• 29:17 Growing in Faith and Discipleship
• 37:42 Living Out Organic Discipleship Principles
• 49:45 Spiritual Growth in Busy Seasons
• 56:11 Navigating Church Growth and Change
• 1:04:17 Effective Evangelism and Discipleship Strategies

Transcript

Speaker 1: 0:01

Hey, welcome to the Faith in Real Life podcast. I'm your co-host, nat Crawford, and of course, I got my partner in crime, dan Koch. Good to be with you. It's always good to be with you, and we are blessed today because I have one of my long distance mentors with us today, kevin Harney. And Kevin Harney is an author, he's a speaker and he is a pastor with truly a passion for helping churches thrive in outreach and discipleship. He's a lead pastor currently at his church in Monterey, california Shoreline Community Church, and, of course, the founder of Organic Outreach International. Kevin, you've also authored several books and you told me five. I was unaware of the fifth but for sure Organic Outreach, people for families, for churches, discipleship and now prayer. So I don't know how you have time to pastor and teach when you're doing all these other things, but that's a different topic for a different day. How are you doing?

Speaker 2: 0:53

brother, I'm doing well. Hey, and the secret is sleep deprivation. That's the key. No, I will tell you. It's funny. My sister, Gretchen, has always operated on four and a half hours of sleep a night. I operate on four and a half to five pretty much my whole ministry and I have two PhDs in my church. They're sleep specialists and they told me. They said you know what there's outliers. Some people need 10 or 11 hours, Some people need four or five hours. They walk me through all this. Do you get tired during the day? Do you get dozed off? No, they walk me through all this. Do you get tired during the day? Do you get dozed off? No, I just when I was a kid, I was hyperactive and they spanked me.

Speaker 1: 1:34

And now I'm a pastor and they pay me. So there you go, that's a good trade-off. I definitely like the upgrade, that's for sure. Well, to get started, I would love for you actually to share your testimony. I've heard it in person, I've read about it in your books, but I think it's a really cool story about how you came to faith in Jesus Christ.

Speaker 2: 1:48

Yeah, do you want the four-hour version or the three-minute version? I'll give you the short version here.

Speaker 1: 1:54

Well, you know, more views and longer watch time helps us, so it's whatever you want.

Speaker 2: 1:59

Well, I grew up in what I would call is a fairly healthy. I grew up in what I would call is a fairly healthy, loving pagan home. My parents loved each other. I did their 50th renewal of vows before my mom passed away. I grew up in a home where there was encouragement and love and in many ways the kind of things you'd want to see in a Christian home. But my parents were both atheists and so I didn't have any religious training. I'd never seen or touched a Bible. I didn't go to church at all. We had one baby son when I was a young kid, but it was just. We went a couple of times to Sunday school but I didn't know what any of that stuff was.

Speaker 2: 2:36

And then my sister Gretchen five kids in my family growing up. I was the middle of five and my older sister, gretchen, had become a Christian and she started to just really gently she's very shy gently kind of share her faith and talk about what Jesus meant to her and play her Christian music Benny Hester, keith Green, sweet Comfort Band, all these old Christian rockers, larry Norman and she kind of played a little too loud for her bedroom so I'd hear it and eventually she said to me you want to come to my church? And I said no, never. And I was kind of mean with her and she kept inviting. And finally she came to me. She said I'm never going to invite you again, but I got one last thing. Let me tell you what it is before you tell me no, it's okay. And she says at our church we're having a casino night 20-girl can-can dancing line which you wouldn't pull off today, but this is over 40 years ago. And she said and they're going to give you $100 of play money when you get in. You get to gamble all night.

Speaker 2: 3:31

And I tell people, for the first time, church sounded interesting to me. My dad taught me to play 21 as a young kid and so I went to church for the first time. And it was all that she said it would be. And when we were there, at the end of the night, this guy named Dan Webster, he got up and he gave a message. I still remember it was called Life's a Gamble when You're Putting your Chips, and he really gave Pascal's wager. I didn't know what that was at the time, I didn't know philosophy, but he basically said if there isn't a God and you follow him. This is how it could change your life for the good. But if there is a God and you follow him, it's all wonderful and so isn't it worth it. I didn't realize that discipleship was a call to sacrifice. He didn't talk about that, it was just. You know, it's better to follow Jesus. And I didn't become a Christian that night, but I won the most play money, I got a big prize and I went back because I met a cute blonde girl and we started dating and kept going to that youth group.

Speaker 2: 4:24

And then that summer they invited us on a houseboat trip where you go water skiing for a week. And it didn't compute to me that if you're on a houseboat you're stuck in the middle of the water and you can't get away. And so we were out in the water all week long, water skiing during the day. But every night and every morning they do devotions. They play their guitars and sing these.

Speaker 2: 4:42

I thought they were silly songs, but they just kept talking about Jesus. And what I found out was the story that my sister, gretchen, had told me about how God loves people and we're lost and wandering like sheep and like Jesus came and he lived and died and rose. And if I believed in him and took his hand and followed him, I could become his person and it changed my life. That's the same story that the youth pastor taught at the church I went to and then on this houseboat, the two leaders in the houseboat were telling that same story about God's love and our need and our sin and our wrong, but that Jesus came to make all that right and if I would just take his hand and follow him, it changed my life. So my sister's telling me this story and this guy, dan, the youth pastor, telling the story, and this guy, gary, on the houseboat telling this story At the end of the week it was hilarious because they go at the last night they kind of shared the gospel one more time.

Speaker 2: 5:27

They didn't know what it was called. It was the story about Jesus and the guy says let's bow our heads. And as our heads are bowed, if there's anyone here today that doesn't yet know Jesus, if there's anyone that may not know Jesus, well, everyone knew, including me and the girl I was dating who wasn't a Christian yet either. They're the only two people on the entire house but they weren't Christians were me and her. But they said there might be someone today who might need Jesus.

Speaker 2: 5:48

And he basically walks through the gospel one more time and he said if you would take the hand of Jesus and accept his forgiveness, accept his love, and then hold his hand and follow wherever he leads you, he loves you and he'd change your life. And at that moment I didn't have all the answers. I'd never held a Bible to that, I'd never read the Bible or held a Bible, but I knew that if there was someone named Jesus who had done what they said he had done, and if he could love me and change me and take my life. So I just prayed Jesus, I don't know if you're there, I don't know if this is real, but if you are and if you love me, and if you really died and rose, if you did all this stuff, they said, uh, and you want me, you can have.

Speaker 2: 6:28

And and I'll tell you both. At that moment the holy spirit of god entered me. I was transformed by the grace of jesus. That night my first prayer ever was to receive jesus. I'd never prayed before. My first prayer was to receive jesus. My second prayer was that night laying on top of the houseboat. The houseboat had a flat roof and all the boys were locked outside on the roof and all the girls were inside, locked inside, because high school kids in small, you know. And I was laying there looking at the stars and my second prayer was okay, god, what do I do now? What do I do now?

Speaker 2: 7:03

And the Holy Spirit spoke. I've never heard the Holy Spirit with my ears, but in my heart, like if you were telling me, like words. I could hear in my heart. But he said spend the rest of your life telling people about Jesus or you'll be miserable. And I thought I don't want to be miserable.

Speaker 2: 7:19

And so the next morning I asked the youth leader. I said how do I become a pastor? And he said he says, dude, you've been a Christian for like seven hours. What are you talking about? And I said I could spend the rest of my life telling people about Jesus or I'll be miserable. So I, I need to become a pastor. And he's like, well, get a haircut. I had hair like down to here. I was at Huntington beach and he says, get a haircut. And I said seriously, he goes, no, I'm joking. But he says you should get a Bible and read. He says I'll get you a Bible. And he got me a Bible and he gave it to me and he said you know, you're supposed to, you're supposed to read this and this is from God and you're supposed to do what it says. That was, that was my discipleship training, and so so here's my. My short version. I tell people is if they say, how did you get involved in the church? How did you hear the whole story, I tell people I went for the gambling and I stayed for the girl and I found Jesus and he's changed my life. And that's really my story.

Speaker 2: 8:18

And that summer I read the Bible for the first time. It took me about two and a half months and they gave me a revised standard version, harper's Study Bible, with study notes by Harold Linzel, and they explained to me like they said on the page. They said, okay, now all the main words, the bigger words, that's the Bible and there's that line underneath it, the smaller print that's like notes about where it happened and what words mean and stuff like that. So I read the whole Bible and I read all the study notes and my mom thought I was going crazy because I put a graph on the wall in my bedroom of all the kings, the northern and the southern kingdoms of Israel, and all the prophets I was trying to. I thought, well, this is true and I got to follow it. So I just really got into it and I went back to the youth leader about two and a half three months later and I said okay, what do I read next? He said, well, how far did you get? I said, I read the whole thing. And what do I do next? What else you got? And he goes, we just got one book. So just he said, just read it again. And I said and I've been doing that ever since. So that's my story.

Speaker 2: 9:14

And since then all five of the kids in my family of origin became Christians. Three of us went into ministry, my dad became a believer and that I don't know if you know this part of our story, but during COVID I got to go and visit my dad on the East Coast share the gospel one more time. And when I finished sharing the gospel I went with not very much faith, honestly. I just thought I'd be faithful to share one more time. And I finished sharing the gospel and I said, dad, are you ready to confess your sin, to follow Jesus? I'd shared the gospel so many times in so many spiritual conversations but I thought he was going to say no, because he said no a thousand times. So are you ready to follow Jesus? And he said absolutely. And I said you know what I did. I went through the whole gospel again. I said let me explain. I walked through it. I said is that what you want to do? And he said yes. And my father became my brother a month before he passed away.

Speaker 3: 10:08

Yeah, that is good.

Speaker 1: 10:14

Thank you for sharing that.

Speaker 3: 10:15

Yeah, I love that story and Dan are you going to run Casino Night at your place anytime soon? I probably wouldn't even know how to put one on.

Speaker 2: 10:21

I tell people I'm not recommending it, I'm just telling my story.

Speaker 1: 10:25

you know that's descriptive and not prescriptive, right, we do need to know the difference. That's funny. Well, obviously, kevin, god grabbed your heart, transformed you. But you made a comment there about well, that was my discipleship, and so you know, we've talked in the past about your other books, whether it's Organic Outreach for Ordinary People or for the churches or for families, and all are great, and I kind of thought Organic Outreach was the definitive book. But then you came out with Organic Outreach for, or Organic Disciples. So why did you write that book? I mean, I thought you kind of covered all the bases, but something needed to be said.

Speaker 2: 11:06

Well, I tell people I've never had a child. I have three sons but I didn't deliver them. I've never delivered a child. But writing a book is kind of like from the way my wife describes it it's a lot of work, it's a lot of time, it's painful, and so you don't write books just at a whim. And so I felt like the organic outreach work was done in terms of writing and I could just spend time traveling and globally and training leaders to change the culture of their church or their denomination. I work with a lot of denominational leaders as well and so I thought the same thing. I thought we were done.

Speaker 2: 11:36

And then I had a group in New Zealand, a national group called Living Stones, who reached out and said, listen, we want you to come and do this conference for us and we want you to do a whole conference on how discipleship and how evangelism work together and how they're supposed to partner. And because I'd gone over there probably eight or 10 times and trained them their national leaders on evangelism through organic outreach. But I always said, listen, discipleship is super important. I think that evangelism and discipleship are bound together, but evangelism is my thing. There's already tons of people doing so much work in discipleship, that is so amazing and wonderful, we don't need another book on discipleship. They said, well, no, we don't want it just on discipleship, we want to have discipleship and evangelism connect. You know how they go together. And so I said no again. They came back again and my wife and I talked and prayed and felt like God was putting on our hearts that we needed to do that.

Speaker 2: 12:24

So we took about 10 months and studied and prepared for that conference. They reached out just a year in advance and so we just prepared and really got into the scriptures and grappled with what it looks like to see what is discipleship that leads to evangelism and evangelism leads to discipleship. What does that look like? And so we went over there and we spent four days just pouring into these leaders and when we were done they kind of mobbed us and just said you have to write this, you have to make this a book, you have to make this available to the church. What you just shared with us is really revolutionary. This is going to change. We get the evangelism aside, but now we see the connection the way we didn't see it before and they're like you got to write a book. And I'm like, yeah, it's like that's a lot of work and it's a lot of time, and I've got a full day job with pastoring a church and I've got a full night job with organic outreach and so anything on top of that is a bonus.

Speaker 2: 13:14

But we said we'll pray about it and you're going to pray about something when you actually do it. You got to do it. God calls you to do. So we felt like God said do this. And we actually, when we wrote the book, we developed more free resources. Our publishers we write with four different publishers, but Zondervan is our primary publisher and they said we think you created more free resources with that book and with those materials than has ever been published in the world by any Christian or any publisher. And they said you'll get given all away for free.

Speaker 2: 13:43

And we're like, yeah, that's because we were the church. We know that churches don't have extra money laying around. We got to make it affordable. And so, uh, and so we we grappled with this, we taught on it. So the reason, the reason we did it was there was a group that reached out. And then we felt like God said take this to that next step and create all that you can and then give it to the local church and help church live this out in a fresh new way.

Speaker 2: 14:08

And it was super fun and it was absolutely the right thing to do. But in the process you know, sometimes you know as leaders in the church, sometimes you just got to do what God calls you to do and you don't know if it's going to make impact or not. You don't know how. You know there's times I'll preach or I'll teach and I feel like I was faithful, but I don't always know the fruit God's bearing through that. But you've got to be faithful. So that's kind of why we did it.

Speaker 2: 14:31

And it was a labor of love that Sherry and I did together when we did the book, when we did the audio book. For that we were in a studio for four days but they had Sherry and I do it together because we wrote the book together and we had both our voices in there and so it's kind of fun. We actually did the whole audio book as a team because it really is her perspective. And Sherry grew up five years old, became a Christian church Sunday morning, sunday evening, wednesday night and she loved it. She had a secret dream as a junior high kid to marry a pastor someday, but she didn't tell her friends because she thought it was weird. And so she grew up in all this church thing. I grew up in this pagan thing, and God's kind of put us together to combine our perspectives, I guess.

Speaker 1: 15:05

It's awesome. Yeah, that's great.

Speaker 3: 15:09

Yeah. So I'm curious, kevin was there a particular moment or experience in your life that you reflected on that kind of helped you as you're pouring over the scriptures, reflecting back on this mentor-discipleship relationship? Maybe some of your story that kind of helped you craft the book and the outlines for that?

Speaker 2: 15:32

Yeah, probably two thoughts. That's a fantastic question. Probably two thoughts. One would be I became a Christian in a great church, but the tone of discipleship at that time was sort of rigid and a lot of pressure involved. That it was sort of like a okay, if you're a Christian now, you read your Bible as much a day and you journal and you pray this amount of time and you help out and you do these things, and if you do these things and check these things off, you're a good disciple.

Speaker 2: 16:05

There was no connection to growing in Jesus, discipleship like growing up in Jesus and going with Jesus on mission. They weren't connected. It was just like here's how you grow in your faith and you do these things, and then you need to have a person in your life who is discipling you, and many of those people tend to be very controlling. It was almost like they were going to make you a disciple of them, more than the disciple of Jesus, which seemed kind of strange to me. It's like I'm. I knew my, I know I'm messed up, I know my frailties, I'm going better than anybody else does you know? So I don't want to go make disciples of Kevin Harney. I want to see people become disciples of Jesus. I can and I can say to them, you know, it's like so, and one of the things was just this, that the climate of discipleship I grew up in it was, it worked, it helped me grow, but and it was sort of like and if you don't do these things, then you're not really being discipled and if you don't do them just this way, you're not a discipler. And I watched Jesus and we, you know.

Speaker 2: 17:11

And the second big thing was I spent a year with my senior staff over children, youth, every ministry in our church, some volunteers, some staff, but my key leaders of every ministry. We spent a year studying the gospels and saying how did Jesus live and what did he teach and what did he do. That was meant to be a model for us, because if a disciple is a follower of Jesus, then you've got to figure out what Jesus is doing and where he's going and how he's doing it, and then you just try to do it like he did. And so on the one hand, it was like this, more of a rigid approach that didn't feel like it was fully grasping the biblical vision, and then the other piece was reading the Gospels with this group of about 14 people talking and praying and grappling with what is it that? What does it look like to follow Jesus?

Speaker 2: 17:49

And we wanted to be able to have something measurable, personally to go. If somebody said to you, hey, nat, are you growing as a disciple, are you more a disciple now than you were a year ago? Most people are going to go, I guess. So what does that mean? How do I know? How do I know, how do I know I'm growing up in faith, how do I know I'm maturing in faith? And so those are the two drivers One, I think, a little bit of a well-intentioned but not real accurate approach and not broad enough, excuse me.

Speaker 2: 18:21

And then the second thing was just a journey of studying with a group of younger, you know, younger, older men, women grappling with who was Jesus, what did he do and what does it mean to follow him. And we came up with these, the seven things and organic disciples, the seven things that felt like the, the clear, unquestionable markers of spiritual growth. And we kind of felt like we were done that any Christian group of Christians who did the same thing we did. We come up with the same conclusion because that's what Jesus did. We want to deal universal and biblical.

Speaker 3: 18:48

Thank you. Yeah, that's really good, that's really good.

Speaker 1: 18:51

So how do you define organic discipleship? I mean, we talk a lot about discipleship and I don't know if people could even define that, but is there a difference between just discipleship and organic discipleship, and why do you think that approach is so important for us as Christians?

Speaker 2: 19:09

Yeah. So I would say when most people say discipleship and it's an important distinction most people probably wouldn't know how to really define it at all, which means we as pastors have to teach our congregational members what it means to be a disciple. But most people they could define disciple. What they mean is I'm growing as a disciple, I'm being discipled, I'm discipling someone. It tends to have to do with me and Jesus and my personal spiritual growth. I'm learning the word, I pray and I'm giving, I'm going to church, I'm growing up in faith, which I'm following Jesus more, which is absolutely accurate. I think part of discipleship is growing to be more and more like Jesus, and so that's that's there. I think it's accurate, it's fair, it's helpful. It's just not the whole picture. And organic disciples and organic discipleship and this is something that I think, even after I finished the book after sharing I finished the book it's become more clear to me it's this concept of it. Organic discipleship is that is, discipleship that leads to evangelism and evangelism that leads to discipleship, and how these things become wedged together. So the organic nature is that I believe that every step we take towards Jesus will take us toward the world, because and here's the language I've been using lately. It's if you grow in Jesus, grow to become like Jesus and you grow in Jesus, that's discipleship. You will go with Jesus, that's evangelism. And I say that discipleship and evangelism are not enemies. In some churches they're like rivals. There's departments and they're fighting for money and fighting for space and they're like well, we're doing our thing, we're the evangelism ones. They're not enemies, they're not rivals. And discipleship and evangelism are not just friends where they, yeah, we get along, we collaborate when we can and we're friends. But I say this evangelism and discipleship are marriage partners and when God has joined together, let no one tear apart. And we spend so much time pulling these things apart, whereas in God's vision, if you're growing to be like Jesus and the locked hands is that picture of you know discipleship and evangelism together. But also I use the picture of if you become a Christian.

Speaker 2: 21:13

The idea is you take the hand of Jesus, you lock hands with Jesus Like a toddler on a busy street with a parent or a grandparent. Once you hold their hand, they're going to go where you go. They're not going to run into the street. So discipleship is taking the hand of Jesus. So when you do that what happens is you go wherever he goes. If you're holding his hand and if you don't let go of his hand, you go where Jesus goes, and he's always. I mean, read the gospels he's always going to the lost. He's always going to the outcast. He's always going to the forgotten. He came to seek and save that which is lost. He goes after lost sheep all the time.

Speaker 2: 21:43

So here's the deal. If that's where Jesus is going and I'm holding the hand of Jesus as his follower, guess where I'm going? I'm going to the world. I'm going out it's good news in partnership with Jesus. And Jesus said go, therefore, and make disciples of all nations, and I'm with you always. I'm there, I'm taking your hand. You're not going to do your mission. You're going to do my mission. You're holding my hand and you're going with me. And so discipleship, which is part of the picture, is our spiritual growth, is becoming like Jesus, and it tends to be me and Jesus, jesus and me, one generational. It's not me helping somebody else as much, or, you know, it's not me growing as a disciple. It's me becoming more like Jesus. But when we grow in Jesus and we become more like Jesus, we go with him on his mission. That's organic, that's a discipleship journey that takes you to the world with the gospel. And now these things aren't enemies or just friends. They're marriage partners, they're locked together. Does that kind of picture help, and does that make sense Absolutely.

Speaker 1: 22:39

Yeah, that's really good, really helpful. Yes.

Speaker 2: 22:42

I always say I'd be a great fourth grade teacher because I think in simple pictures I'm not very complex, I'm like just make it make sense to me, so I know clear enough so I can go do it, you know.

Speaker 1: 22:52

Well, now we know who to hire when we need a children's pastor. So you are on deck, we'll bring you go.

Speaker 3: 22:58

Organic children. That's funny.

Speaker 1: 23:03

I like that. So one of the things you write about is that discipleship begins with that personal transformation. So what does it look like for someone to cultivate that authentic, that growing relationship with Jesus before discipling others? I think that's a major missing component in today's Christian walk.

Speaker 2: 23:24

Yeah, yeah, you know that was something that's a great question. That's one of the things that we really grappled with in this year with our team together, talking, praying and studying. This is what we realized was that there's some preambles, some foundational things, but I do believe we can take the hand of somebody else and help them grow spiritually much quicker than we think we can. Some people have been waiting 40 or 50 years to get mature enough to help somebody else grow in faith, and guess what, if it took you 30 years, it took too long. You know, one of the things that we realized as we were walking through kind of what it looks like to follow Jesus and and how he modeled the life of faith, was that the fruit of the Spirit is essential, that our interior love, joy, peace, patience, all the things that everybody wants Christians want, but also non-believers. What are they looking for? Love, joy, peace, patience, self-control. You know I'm going to lose 20 pounds. Everyone's looking for what God offers by His Spirit, in the fruit of the Spirit, and so we have to first look at ourselves and say am I growing in the fruit of the spirit? Am I becoming the person on the inside that shines the light on the outside and that honors God.

Speaker 2: 24:30

And we all know, and especially as pastors, we know that when you read the scriptures, the gospels particularly, there's a whole groups of people who did everything right religiously but they were all wrong. You know, from the scribes, the Pharisees, to the, to the zealots, to the uh, even the, the SSE. The SSE is pulled away from the world. The zealots wanted to kill the Romans, the scribes and the Pharisees Um, they, they tithe, and they knew the Bible better than we do and they knew where to pray and how to pray and do it, pray in. And they knew the Bible better than we do and they knew where to pray and how to pray and do it pray in a way that everybody goes whoa. That's where they're amazing and everybody gets to pray. You know they did all the right stuff, but Jesus said you're inside of you. It's like dead bones of a tomb inside of you.

Speaker 2: 25:12

So I tell people, don't become this amazing, don't say I'm going to do all these spiritual disciplines and I'm going to do them all in such a way that I'm better than you and I can look down on you and I can be arrogant about myself. It's like you know we don't need more Pharisees. We need genuine followers of Jesus. So one of the things I tell people is search your heart and say am I growing in love, in joy, in peace, kindness, gentleness all of these things, those nine indicators of a transformed heart. We don't want to get master spiritual disciplines and markers of spiritual maturity so that we then feel like we're better than everyone. We want to do it so we become more mature, and so I think that the interior work of the Spirit and the fruit of the Spirit is critical, as we're growing as a disciple and then taking the hands of other people both ways people helping us and us helping others grow in faith.

Speaker 3: 26:03

That's awesome, that's great, yeah, really good. I would love to hear you kind of flush that out a little bit in the context of community, like as the arena for where we practice the fruit of the Spirit.

Speaker 2: 26:20

Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 3: 26:22

Because that's tied to your view of discipleship as well. Yeah, yeah.

Speaker 2: 26:28

Yeah, so when you look at the life of Jesus, he had multiple communities. He had the crowds, he had the 70. He had the 12. He had the three Peter, james and John. He had Mary, martha and Lazarus where he was when he was in Bethany, all these circles of people, and so you know. And community is one of the seven markers that we look at that Jesus modeled. And so the way my wife and I have defined this and Sherry and I we walk through all these things together is that there's really four generations.

Speaker 2: 26:58

If you're a disciple, both growing in the fruit of the Spirit and growing in the acts of living more and more like Jesus and taking his hand and following him, if you're doing that, to do it alone is not the biblical model we are made for unity. Adam did not fully reflect in some some way, fully reflect all god wanted to reflect with eve. Then together they reflected the image, the imago dei, the image of god, that this vision of who god is is seen not just in a man or a woman, but in how men and women function together, how people function together. And so what we always say is uh, and this comes from second timothy 2, 2, it also comes from other passages in the Bible that faith is generational, whether it's a family generation or family of faith generation, or a believer walking with a non-believer towards Jesus. And what we describe is that we always have to have there's four generations of connected relationship as we grow as disciples interior and outward expression. And so we tell people imagine yourself this way You're traveling through life, reaching up with one hand and taking the hand of somebody who is helping you grow spiritually. That person, whether you say they're discipling you or mentoring you, or you're an apprentice or they're just a great godly person helping you in your faith the term doesn't matter as much as do it. Live it up. Godly person helping you in your faith the term doesn't matter as much as do it you know, live it up. And so you know.

Speaker 2: 28:26

And so for me, I have two people right now one guy named Paul Cedar. Paul was the president of the Evangelical Free Church for years, great brother, and then Carl Overbeak, who was a leader in the Reformed Church, but two amazing godly men. That, carl, probably 18 years ago, paul, probably 10 or 11 years ago, I asked will you pour into my life? Will you take my hand spiritually? Will you help me grow, will you invest in me? They both had a great answer. They said I'll pray about it and they came back and said yes. But if they just said no, I'd have found somebody else.

Speaker 2: 28:52

But I I have to have at least a couple of people who are taking me grow. Carl, he does that through a series of accountability questions. He asks me and areas he keeps me accountable. Paul does it through. I send him one or two questions every time we're going to meet and just questions about life, ministry, family, and he just pours wisdom into me. But they both are taking a hand, helping me become more like Jesus. And you go.

Speaker 2: 29:17

Well, kevin, you're a grandpa, you have five grandkids. You still need somebody helping you grow spiritually. I'm like, oh man, and I'll tell you anybody listening to this right now, if you're a Christian, you don't have that, find it. I've never had anybody come to me and offer to do that. I've had to go and ask people. I mean I think I'm a likable guy, I'm fun to be around. You know I try, I'm, you know I put in the work. I've never had anybody come say, hey, can I pour into your life spiritually, formally, like that? I've asked people to do it. So you asked about community. Right, I have a couple of men. Now there's other men in my life, other pastors that pour into my life and there's people who've gone before us, who I read their books. There got two people that still have a pulse, that love Jesus, that pour into my life regularly and then I steward my own spiritual growth. I have to look at my biblical engagement, my passionate prayer, my wholehearted worship. Am I growing to be like Jesus? So someone's helping me grow spiritually. I'm being discipled, I'm tending to my own spiritual growth.

Speaker 2: 30:16

That's generation two. I'm taking the hand of people, like my three sons, who all love Jesus. One's a pastor, one's in wealth management and one is a videographer but they love Jesus. I'm helping them grow spiritually. I've got four different pastors I invest in on a monthly basis but I'm walking with spiritually. And can I tell you what? I grow as Paul and Carl take my hand. But I also grow as I tend to my own soul and I grow as I help other people grow. So generation one for me you know these two men. Generation two I tend to my own spiritual growth. Generation three I'm helping younger leaders and younger men grow in faith, and sometimes men older than me chronologically, but spiritually. I'm helping them along. And then here's the, here's the key. I'm helping those ones whose hand I'm taking. I'm teaching them how to do this with other people. You have to duplicate the sailors.

Speaker 2: 31:01

That's where Paul is writing to Timothy and he says in 2 Timothy, 2.2, my wife and I call this the 2.2.2 lifestyle. He said you know, and he says to Timothy the things you've heard me say in the presence of many witnesses. Paul says I'm generation one, I'm pouring into you. I've shared things in the presence of many witnesses. You now, timothy, take hold of those things, you live them and you find reliable people that you pour into, who will train others also.

Speaker 2: 31:27

And here's the beauty it's not supposed to start, it's not supposed to stop there. I can only be accountable for those four generations. But the people I'm passing it on to and I'm teaching to do with others. That's what's been happening since the disciples followed Jesus. That's what will happen until Jesus comes again, if the church is going to be here and thriving. It happens as we take someone's hand, let them spiritually influence us. As we tend to our own growth, we take the hand of someone else and help them grow. We teach them how to do the same thing again and again, and again until Jesus comes again. So that's that community picture.

Speaker 2: 31:56

And can you imagine both of you think about this as leaders in the local church if every member of your congregation was living that way one or two people helping them grow spiritually with accountability and encouragement and joy and friendship and spiritual leadership, and they were tending to their own soul and they knew what it meant to grow in faith. I've got to grow in God's Word in these ways. I've got to grow in prayer. I've got to humbly serve others. I've got to share my faith. Naturally, this is the Christian life and they were telling you that. And then they were discipling someone else, helping somebody else grow and teaching them to multiply that. This is why this is what this is God's design from the beginning. And if we live this out, won't be a church of 50 for very long and you will not be a dull church. You will be dynamic because we're in love with Jesus.

Speaker 2: 32:48

I get kind of excited. This is God's vision. This is what we're meant to do, right, I mean, and you know what. None of this is very creative, but it is revolutionary, I mean, and nothing I'm saying. I haven't come up with any of this stuff. I just got involved with the Bible. This is just how we're supposed to do it. But when people hear it, they go. That's amazing. I'm like, well, yeah, that's how God designed us to function, right.

Speaker 1: 33:13

Absolutely right. Wow, that's awesome. Yeah, so much of what you talk about, I think, in all your books, but in Organic Discipleship is the idea of spiritual growth, and you actually talk about seven markers in your book. Do you want to share just briefly what those seven markers are and then maybe we'll pick one and we'll unpack it?

Speaker 2: 33:34

But I think it'd be helpful for people to dig into that topic dig into that topic and, as I'll hit him pretty quickly, but I'll also, I'll tie him in every one of these markers. If you are growing in this marker, it should not just cause you to grow, it should drive you to the world. Because if you're taking the hand of Jesus and following him, if you're growing, if you're going in, if so, the verse was Bible engagement. Okay, If you are growing in the scriptures with our little kids in our church, we tell them that they need to learn and love and live the bible. You know, learn it, love it, live it. And so if children, youth, adults are learning, loving and living out the bible, that will become evangelistic.

Speaker 2: 34:09

Because when you read the bible, you, you meet. You meet abraham, who was blessed to be a blessing to the nations. You meet jonah, who didn't want to go to these horrible pagan ninevites. I mean one of those violent, uh, warlike people in the history of the world. He didn't want to go to them. Horrible pagan Ninevites. I mean one of those violent, warlike people in the history of the world. He didn't want to go to them. But God said we're going to go. And when God shows mercy on them, he goes. I knew it, god I knew you were going to. He was like he was angry that God was so merciful. But we learn about the mercy of God when we read the servant songs in Isaiah. We see this heart for the world and this one who came to suffer and to die. When you walk through the Bible and God's heart for the world comes again. Both his justice and his mercy are wrapped in all of the scripture, and so Bible engagement shouldn't just help us get more Bible knowledge, it should change our heart and send us out into the world. Second one patch the prayer. Jesus prayed constantly. He taught us to pray, and so prayer should be a part of our spiritual journey and growth on a daily, moment by moment basis. But also as we grow in prayer, as we follow Jesus, it takes us out into the world.

Speaker 2: 35:12

I've prayed with thousands of non-believers, not in crowds, that's different. I've done things like one-on-one thousands of non-believers. I've only had four times a non-believer has told me no or no. Thank you to praying. When I'm at a restaurant, someone's serving me, when I'm talking with somebody at an airport and they share a great joy or great pain, I'll very regularly say you know, that's interesting, I don't know if you're believing the whole prayer thing, but I actually do and I'd be honored if I could take a minute and just say a prayer for that, for you. Oh, you just became a grandpa. Can I pray for you? And you said granddaughter, granddaughter. Can I pray for you and your granddaughter? I've never had anybody say no. You know, I'm like sure, great and probably a third of the people after I pray for them, men and women, they have tears in their eyes. He's here with us and so prayer isn't just me and Jesus, prayer is me and Jesus for the world.

Speaker 2: 36:04

Jesus said pray, therefore, that the Lord of the harvest will send workers out into the harvest field. That's part of our prayer life. So biblical engagement. Jesus loved the word. We love the word. The word takes us to the world. Passionate prayer. Jesus prayed and taught us to pray. We pray. Prayer leads us into the world All heart and worship. Jesus invites worship. When people bowed down to him, he didn't say Blasphemy, stop it, I'm just a teacher. He received worship. He modeled this great journey of worship. So we become his worshipers and our worship is a witness to the world the way that we worship.

Speaker 2: 36:35

Years ago, sally Morgenthaler wrote a book called Worship, evangelism, but it was about how, when nonbelievers come into a genuinely worship-filled context, they feel the presence of the Spirit. God is doing something, god begins to move and so, and I hope in both of your churches, when you meet together, there's people there that have been invited, that don't yet know Jesus, and in that context they can hear the Word, they can see community, they can watch people worship and go. This is kind of weird but wow, my sister Allison, last five kids in my family to become a Christian. My sister Allison sang in a church choir for two years before she became a Christian. She was searching and seeking and she told the choir leader. She said I love music and every time I sing these songs that my brother and sisters keep sending me, I cry and I just want to know more about Jesus. But can I be in your choir because I love music? And they said yes, and so that when she prayed to receive Jesus, I got to baptize her in the fountain in front of the church church in Irvine, california, big church and the entire choir came and circled the baptismal fountain and sang as my sister was baptized and she was already in community. And it's beautiful, right, but worship was part of her journey to Jesus.

Speaker 2: 37:42

And so wholehearted worship, and then humble service. No one served more than Jesus. And so what do we do? We're his followers, we serve, and when we serve, the world sees the presence of Jesus. If you want to be countercultural today, serve someone who hates you, and Jesus said that a long time ago, but especially today. Now we tend to hate people who just slightly disagree with us in our culture. You serve people who hate you. I mean that just shines a light in the darkness right.

Speaker 2: 38:08

And then the fifth one is so Bible engagement, passionate prayer, wholehearted worship, humble service, and then joyful generosity. And we put joyful in there because it's not just giving, it's giving with the right heart. God loves a cheerful giver. And our team debated is generosity? Should that be one of these markers that we were developing? We didn't know how many there were going to be when we were working on it, but all through the Bible, the call to generosity is so consistent. And then Jesus' example of giving, even giving his own life, is so consistent, and he calls us to lay down our lives and follow him, to give everything we have. It's financial, but it's our lives, it's our time. It's our gifting, it's all that we are. And so Jesus gave, we give, and when we give, that speaks volumes to a world that doesn't understand that kind of a spirit. That opens the door for the gospel.

Speaker 2: 38:56

And then number six is consistent community being together. And you think about it, jesus? Of all the beings in the universe that didn't need fellowship and community, jesus would be at the top of the list, perfect community, father, son, holy Spirit eternal. But when he walked on this earth, he loved community, he loved being with people. And so we go. Okay, I'm supposed to take his hand and be like Jesus. I got to love community. And then the world watches us. And the world, how will they know that we are his disciples? How will they know we are Christians? Well, there's a song about it. They will know we are Christians by our love, by our love, yes. They'll know we are Christians by the way we love each other. Our community becomes a witness to the world of what it looks like to walk with other people.

Speaker 2: 39:36

And then, finally, organic outreach, and that is Jesus came with a mission statement to seek and save the lost. We're called to shine the light of Jesus, and when we do it that changes the world. With the gospel, people come to know Jesus. So those seven markers I don't know if that's more than you wanted or not, but the long form is the thing these days and I can talk a lot. That's brief compared to in the book Organic Disciples. There's a section on each of those seven and each section has three chapters. How, on each of those seven, and each section has three chapters. How did Jesus do it? How do we do it? How does it change the world?

Speaker 3: 40:10

So learn from Jesus, become like Jesus, go with Jesus. No, that's great. I'm curious in your experience, when you're dealing with disciples, is there a particular marker where you've seen people?

Speaker 2: 40:26

struggle the most with embracing or growing in. Yeah, yeah, you know what it's funny. So when we came up with these seven markers, we created an online self-assessment tool that we use in our churches, now on our website, and anyone can use it anywhere in the world for free, if they can do it in English or Spanish, and we're working on some other languages. But so what happened was we then had about. We had a good group of people probably maybe a quarter of our congregation did the self-assessment. We had a setup where we'd only get their information if they hit a certain button and they could meet with a pastor one-on-one and talk about developing their own personal pathway of spiritual growth. But all of them, the data hit us, and so, within about a month, I had our two weakest areas as a congregation. And uh and so I went to our congregation. I said I'm going to do a two week series. I'm going to call it two areas that we spiritually um, uh, there's lots of we're not doing a good job, two areas that were weak spiritually. And uh and so, and and our case it was it was was joyful generosity and humble service. We have a lot of people who are very busy and they just don't want to give that time to serve in the church. It doesn't have to be in the church or outside the church, but they're serving Jesus actively in the world. And then joyful generosity is always a challenge, and so we spent two weeks on that, but that also helped us discover what we need to lean into as a congregation. So those are two. But here's the thing that's interesting we have lots of people every year that do this self-assessment and they hit the button that says I want to meet with someone. We meet with every individual. We have a team of people, but mostly volunteers. They meet one-on-one. They're trained to help people then say here's where I'm strong, how do I build on that and celebrate it? Here's where I'm weak, how do I design my own spiritual growth pathway, instead of saying here's the pathway we all follow, it's no, we will design a pathway for you because, guess what, you're a unique person and we will have people that Bible engagements like that's, that's.

Speaker 2: 42:14

I just never really read the Bible. I always wanted to. I mean to. So we get up and for them to do go deeper into the word, and you have somebody else who says boy, the organic outreach thing. I'm terrified to share my faith. I've never talked to anybody about my faith except for my family, and even then it makes me nervous. Okay, then let's help you grow in that area. So I've seen it across the boards, but the joyful generosity in the American church seems to be a big one. As I talk with pastors where they use this for their church congregation and when they assess their congregation. That's a big one. Consistent community. People are getting busy and pulling away more, and so yeah, but each person has their own journey and needs kind of a pathway that suits where they're at and what will take them closer to Jesus.

Speaker 1: 42:56

Yeah, I was really impressed that you and not surprised based on who you are, your writings but you know that emphasis on scripture engagement. When I was at Back to the Bible, we had a research arm called the Center for Bible Engagement, and we did a worldwide study of over 500,000 people on every continent that asked the question what difference does scripture engagement make in the lives of people? Practically, and over the course of that study, we looked at comparison of the Bible versus even the Quran or Hindu writings, and those did nothing. But when a person engaged in Scripture four more times per week, it led to life transformation, and so it's so important that we, as Christians, engage in Scripture. But much of what you have emphasized is not out of obligation or compulsion, but rather out of that love for God and to know him more, which again goes back to organic outreach. Love God, love people, and so if there's an area that I think I would encourage all of our listeners and those watching is don't settle here. If you are struggling with, whether it's anxiety or depression or pornography engage in God's word and it will begin to transform you.

Speaker 1: 44:10

You talk about giving and generosity. One of the unique factors in the study was if a person engaged in God's word four more times per week, giving in the church went up 417%. It was crazy. People shared their faith went up 417%. It was crazy. People shared their faith, they said 220% more likely to do so. So it's amazing, the power of God's word. We're not surprised, but it's great to see practically the difference it makes. And so I would guess, kevin, those who are watching they know they need to pick up the book, but they're also wondering okay, great, how do I apply this to my own life? Like practically, how do I live out organic discipleship? What do they do?

Speaker 2: 44:52

Yeah, well, I think the first step is to, in your mind, actually agree, I think, with what is true we have in our modern world. We say, well, I believe in something, but it doesn't actually change our lives. In the ancient world, belief and living were bound together, and so we're going to say, well, I give assent to those certain things. But when you read the Bible and you actually believe what it says is true, it shapes everything. It shapes everything. It shapes everything. It shapes how you live, how you love, how you vote, how you spend your free time, how you parent, if you're married, how you love your spouse. Although the Bible doesn't answer every single question, it addresses every topic in life, the, you know, the Bible didn't answer the question which who's the right woman for me to marry. I didn't turn to a page that says Sherry Lynn Harney, you're going to meet her on this summer. This, you know. I got questions where it doesn't answer my exact question, but every topic and every aspect of life. It is there and it is powerful and so, yeah, so, so, so, you know, you know to immerse yourself in Scripture. I think the starting point is to read the Word, and then you know, and I just did a series at our church called the Book, a three-week series on basically how to understand Scripture and how to read Scripture. And one of the things I was challenging people in is that you know, you need to not just read it and apply it, you need to read it and then do that interpretive processing. Okay, what was God saying to Nehemiah? And, through Nehemiah, what was God saying to Abraham? Or to Sarah, what was God saying to Timothy? And not just go, here's an idea. I'm going to apply it to my life. Let's say, here's the biblical truth. What does that mean? How do we, matter of fact, this commentary series right above my head here, um, the nyvac series, it it actually sets up where every pericope, every passage in the bible, it goes through the original meaning, the interpretive context and then life application. So it's life application every passage and it has what the text is saying. But then how do we understand it? How do we? How do we bridge from the ancient world to our world today? And when you do that well, the scriptures come alive.

Speaker 2: 47:06

I was so glad when I first became a christian that they gave me a, the revised standard version, harper study bible. Uh, because the notes at the bottom. I didn't know what a shekel was, I didn't know what I mean. There were all these different words, that I and but, but. But it also gives some background, some history and what was happening in that part of the world, and it put those pieces together.

Speaker 2: 47:25

So I think, to become students, there's times, if you've got five minutes, you just want to read a psalm and meditate on it. It's fantastic. But I think that life change comes when we understand what it says, what it means, and then we say what does it mean for me today, this week, in my life, my marriage, my family, my workplace? And then to apply that truth in a way. That's this transformation and so it's. It's it. There is that call to go a little deeper and to think a little bit more. And I know uh, you know, nat, for you and your background in in, you know where you've worked and what you've done as a pastor and also through, uh, in the world, of moving people towards biblical engagement. Um, engagement, when we really take the time to understand the Scripture and then to seek to live it out, it changes everything. It's powerful and you want more. You want more because you feel the power of God moving through you to transform you.

Speaker 3: 48:16

Preach. Yeah, so you're not starting off a young disciple reading Numbers or Leviticus? I'm guessing that's a joke, but maybe not a good one.

Speaker 2: 48:30

You know, when I got my first Bible they just said to read it and I'd never read it. I only read books that were chronological and that were you know. And so I just read from the beginning to the end and the guy that asked me said I thought you would get stuck in Leviticus and be done. But I said no, I said I didn't get it totally, but I read it and I even read all the. I said I read all the names, all the lists of names. I read every. You said it's God's word and it's true. So I read every name too. I wouldn't jump over those parts.

Speaker 2: 48:55

And he was like wow, he said I don't think I've even done it. I love it, but with a new believer that maybe are a little more accessible. But Genesis is fantastic. I mean, genesis is very narrative, very story-oriented, but it's teaching people not just to read the Bible but how to read the Bible right.

Speaker 3: 49:18

Yeah, that's good.

Speaker 1: 49:22

Well, I've got one more question for you, but, dan, do you have anything before we move on to closing this program out?

Speaker 3: 49:28

uh, well, some of the practical advice stuff I kind of want. I do have some questions there. I don't I want to steal your thunder um on that one. I know you, you've got some stuff to encourage believers and leaders. I'm just curious about a situation where if you have a young family we have a church mostly of young people, but a young family, two kids in diapers how do you encourage them? What does it look like for them, I mean, as they're trying to manage the load of time of family, the needs of their kids, what does it look like in their context?

Speaker 2: 50:12

So I think one of the greatest pieces of advice I could give is and we, our boys, are all in their thirties now, but they're, you know, they were one, three and five, and you know, seven, nine and 11. They were always, you know, they're two years apart. So we had three little ones. All at the same time we had to grapple with our own lives. Our two, our two of our three sons are married and have kids. The other one's married and has. They have dogs. But, um, but our two kids with kids, um, we challenged them. We. You can't say this is a busy season, so I'm really not going to walk in a meaningful way with Jesus. I'll get back to that later because it's always a busy season, it just is. I mean, there are times that are more intensive and so the best counsel I can give to anybody is to think about the 2-2-2 lifestyle, 2 Timothy 2-2. You know Paul says the things you've heard from me. You grow in those things. You entrust them to faithful, reliable people that they can teach others also. So here's what I would say to a young mom with three little kids you find a woman in your church or in your community who loves Jesus and you pray, lord, is this somebody that I respect and that could pour into my life spiritually that I would want to become more like as I become more like Jesus. And you go and you pray, do it prayerfully, and you go to that person and you say, listen, I don't want to pressure you, but I'd love to you know with my life the way it is right now. Maybe once a month I'll get with you for maybe an hour, hour and a half and would you just take my hand spiritually on accountability. I've got some years. I'm trying to grow. I'd just like to ask you questions and gain wisdom from you. But I want to become more like Jesus. I see Jesus in you. Would you pray about that and maybe next week or so, let me know if you'd be open to doing that? And if that person isn't available, you pray and you'd go to the next person and you'd be relentless to make sure that this hand of spiritual wealth is not empty and you can't say, well, my pastor disciples me. I hope your pastor is discipling you. We tell people anytime someone takes the hand of someone and walks with them and they become more like Jesus. That's discipleship, because discipleship is following Jesus. So lots of people can disciple you, but you need somebody who's investing in you. Right Then part one? Okay, that's someone who's pouring into your life and then you make some time every day to tend to your soul, to spend time in prayer, to be in the Word. It might be five or seven minutes is all you can do right now, but you do that.

Speaker 2: 52:32

Susanna Wesley there's different accounts of how many kids she had, how many she bore and how many lived, but the mother of Charles and John Wesley, her kids knew and this is well documented her kids knew that when she was in the kitchen, at the dining room table, she would take her apron and when she put it up over her head and covered her head, that was her prayer tent and they had to be quiet and not bother her. I said that to Sarah one time and I said and so she would put her dress over her head. My wife said to me after she said it was her apron, not her dress. I said important distinction. Here's this mom raising a gaggle of kids, but she had to teach them. There's times that mom needs to be with Jesus. There's times that mom needs to be quiet here and seek the face of Jesus, and so you tend to your own spiritual, with some time in the word and prayer, and go through those seven markers. Am I being joyfully generous? Am I modeling it to my kids and tend to those things? And then, as busy as you are, whose hand are you taking? If it's your kids, and it should be if you're raising young kids, do it intentionally, don't just say I'm trying to help them. Now you've got seven markers. Am I helping my kids have Bible engagement? Am I teaching my kids to pray with passion? Am I teaching my kids joyful generosity? Am I teaching my kids the importance of community? Am I teaching my kids about humble service?

Speaker 2: 53:54

Our kids served with Sherry and I from their youngest days and two of them went into ministry and then one went from ministry into a different career. I actually had him on my staff. He was amazing. But a financial guy saw him and said would you consider being a, basically a minister in the marketplace? And I'm like, hey, wherever God wants you man, go serve, serve Jesus.

Speaker 2: 54:12

But but are you, are you actually, if you've got kids, start discipling your kids from their youngest, youngest days, all right, and then those that you disciple, you teach them to do that for somebody else and you say, okay, well, that's a lot, but it's not a lot, it's a lifestyle. It's a lifestyle and if you make it part of your life and not a chore that you do and that you said earlier about, you know, moving from it being a chore and a thing I have to do to being something that I long to do, picture your life like that. What? Picture your life like that? What if you all you know young women, younger men, older women, older men, what if you had somebody who was really investing in you spiritually? You know they were praying for you and walking with you? What if you were tending to your own spiritual life and you had some ways to measure how you're doing? And for anyone listening they can go on the organicoutreachcom or organicoutreachorg I think we own both domains and do the spiritual growth self-assessment and you'll get results immediately.

Speaker 2: 55:04

You'll see where you're strong, you'll see where you can grow and then it gives you ideas of ways you can grow and ways you can work on it. We had somebody from Shoreline Church in Texas I'm Shoreline Church in Monterey, not related but we had a woman who went on our website thinking it was her website and her church. And she did the assessment and she marked the button her church. And she did the assessment and she marked the button. So my wife reached out to me and said how long have you been coming to Shoreline? She said about a year or so. Then, after about five minutes, sherry realized that she was talking to me and the woman said well, would you still walk me through the markers and just talk with me? So they got on a zoom call and my wife just poured into her and got her on a journey of growth and said now you'll find someone in your community that can walk with you. And so that was the best counsel I could give.

Speaker 2: 55:42

And here's the deal If you don't start now, you're not going to start. That's not true. You might start, but I mean I just tell people don't wait till things slow down, because if I was waiting till things slowed down, I would never have moved, because things are always running hard. So well, now I got teenagers and they're really busy. Well, now I got grandkids. Now I'm dead. Okay. Well, I should have gone on top of that. You know, it's like jumping. Does that get to what you're asking about, dan Does?

Speaker 3: 56:08

that help. Yeah, I love that. I love it. Thank you for that. Can you repeat that website again?

Speaker 2: 56:13

Yeah, it's just organicoutreachcom or organicoutreachorg O-R-G to tell you everything on the website's free. We're developing these new things called pathways. There's like Explorer's Pathway, expeditioner Pathway that actually gives you a whole curriculum of videos, readings, prayer, direction to grow in your own discipleship and evangelism. All the pathways are free, all the resources are free and there's nothing people can donate if they want to. But it's just trying to help people grow in that journey of discipleship. And so they were just releasing the day hiker, which is kind of an introductory pathway that if somebody did they would get a new vision of discipleship and evangelism.

Speaker 2: 56:50

And it's my wife, myself, walt Tom Green, a new guy on our team, blake, different people doing some teaching. But it's like here's a four minute video, here's a reflection question. Take five minutes and pray about this. It just gives people a journey of growth and we're in the middle of. I think we're going to have five pathways. I think we've got two launched. But if you have a problem getting on the website, if there's any issues, just contact Organic Outreach and talk with one of our team and they'll help figure it out for you. But we want people to take hold of the responsibility to grow spiritually and to do it in community.

Speaker 1: 57:21

Wow, they recommend community. Wow, I highly recommend those resources. And just for clarity, not Tom Green from MTV, so different at Tom Green.

Speaker 2: 57:31

We had two Tom Greens on our team at the same time and one volunteering, one on staff at our church, tom Green with an E at the end of the green, so it would be the Tom Green with the E or Tom Green without the E. And the one, Tom Green with the E, actually went to Jesus just a couple, just just a month and a half. Well, not the one for organic outreach, but the one that was working with our adult spiritual formation. But uh, but neither of them are the other tom green, just just for the record okay, yeah, just for clarity.

Speaker 1: 57:54

Good, some people may ask exactly, uh, you know? Last question I have for you, kevin. Um, really goes back to marcus seven organic outreach and Outreach and really the original book. When a person or a church really goes down this path of organic discipleship and really leans into the organic outreach and they're praying for people and praying with people and loving God and loving people more, they buy into that concept that everyone plays. They buy into that concept that everyone plays, that will inevitably bring on change in the church. And change and growth is, I think, what we all long for and pray for. Spiritual growth first and foremost, but often with that comes numerical growth and you can get into those seasons where it becomes well, our church is no longer our church, my church versus your church. So how would you coach, encourage, disciple someone who's watching today, who their church is going through that season and it's changing and it's hard. That's a reality for a lot of churches. So how would you encourage someone who's experiencing that or who they will if they go down this path?

Speaker 2: 59:07

Yeah, that's a great question and not exactly what you said happens. When a church, if you have a church of 50 and you reach 35 or 40 new people that become believers, you know this is amazing. Then you start to think wait a minute, the new ones are outnumbering. We're the founding members, we help pay for this building and now we got more people. We got more people here that aren't part of our group, that you know and, and I mean everyone prays for that and they want that. But then when it happens you're right it just kind of like Whoa, whoa, whoa.

Speaker 2: 59:35

I had one guy that was on the search team for the. He said we want to reach the lost, we want to reach the community. Well, the church doubled and a lot of it was through new believer growth. And then the church doubled again and he came to me and he said I think we should. I think we should plant a new church. I said oh, wow, you're getting a vision for the world. I said tell me about it. He goes yeah, we got to start a new church and send all these new people there. I said oh, you're trying to unload the new people. I said no, no. I said that's not how we're going to start a new church. We eventually did that, but we did a church, but we didn't do it for that reason. And so here's what I would say, and I'm just going to talk to them. If that's you right now and you are like I love my church, I love Jesus, I love the lost, but now we're disenfranchised, a little disconnected because there's just more people and I wanted that, but now I'm kind of like I don't know quite exactly what to do with that. I would say to you look at the scriptures and see the heart of Jesus. These are people that were wandering like sheep without a shepherd and they have come home to the good shepherd. Your role is no longer to just say this is my church. Your role is to say whose hand do I take? I got people helping me, but now I'm going to say who are these new people? These are new believers. Go to your pastor and say will you train me so I can help new believers grow in their faith? Will you train me? How can I use my gifts? Maybe you've been hanging back, not doing very much. Man, your church needs you now and don't feel like an outsider in your own church. Step into humble service, consistent community walk with people, love people.

Speaker 2: 1:01:10

I remember a woman who came to me this was years ago, first church I served and we had introduced some new music. The first church I served, my first Sunday was their 100-year anniversary Sunday and they had not changed their order of worship for 100 years. And when they called me I said I didn't even grow up in the church and I'm a person that wants to reach the lost and I don't think you're ready to count the cost. And they said we are, we are. And then they hired me and we started reaching lost people and some people started struggling.

Speaker 2: 1:01:35

This woman came to me and she said she said, pastor, I want to let you know that I don't like the new music. I don't like the guitar, I don't like the, I like the hymns and I like the organ. And this is. This is going back 30 plus years. And I said to her do you think we should stop doing the new music? And she said oh, no, no, I think we should. I just want you to know I don't like it.

Speaker 2: 1:01:59

And I was kind of like. I was kind of like, and then it hit me. I was like wait a minute. She is telling me you're my pastor, love me, and I'm going to sacrifice. I'm going to give up some things I love. I'm going to count the cost. I just need you to know it's hard for me to be my pastor.

Speaker 2: 1:02:17

I get mad at her. I just said to her her name was Margaret. I said, margaret, I love your heart. I said you're, you're going to give up what you love for people that Jesus loves, that are coming home to him. She says, yeah, I just need you to be my pastor. I know it's hard for me and I thought I said I'll walk with you, but I said let's together, let's just keep loving the lost and inviting him in. And uh, and she became one of my outreach heroes.

Speaker 2: 1:02:40

Uh, she was able to say and here's the crazy part you know, when Jesus, when people follow Jesus, what did he say to them? He said if you're going to be my follower, all you got to do is just deny yourself and be ready to die every day and go where I go. That's all. Just deny yourself, take up your cross, follow me. It's like well, wait a minute. That's right, it's not.

Speaker 2: 1:03:04

It wasn't designed to be easy, it was designed to be world-changing. And so here's what I would say to pastors listening Pastor your people when you're inviting them to outreach. Be patient with them, love them, care for them. It's sacrificial and that's what our life is about as Christians. But invite them on the journey and I will tell you, I'll tell you, the people who have been the most resistant to outreach in the two. I've not bounced around. I've served two churches a senior pastor and I. I stay, you know, I, I in both cases about 15 years, and um and so, um, we, you know, I, just I just lost my train of thought when I was. I was thinking about 15 years and thinking about that in January I'm not going to be a lead pastor for the first time in my life and my brain went off.

Speaker 3: 1:03:49

The people who resist the most.

Speaker 2: 1:03:51

Oh, thank you, Thank you. Thank you so much. Yeah, the people who resist the most have become the greatest partners. Because here's the thing they love Jesus, they believe the Word. I tell pastors, if your people believe the word of God and if they love Jesus and if they love the lost, they will learn to count the cost. It won't happen like this. So keep reminding them of what the word says, keep reminding them what the mission of Jesus is and invite them to be part of it, not to be observers, to be partners in it.

Speaker 2: 1:04:17

So my strongest partners in both the churches I've served have been men and women who initially were highly resistant. Two of my pastors in the church I serve right now that fought the most and were passive, resistant, for like the first year of trying to reach our community. They wanted to do it, but they were just like. This is just a fad. You're going to talk about this for a while. We're going to move to the next thing.

Speaker 2: 1:04:38

I know how pastors are. I said, no, this isn't the next thing, this is Jesus' thing. This is why he came. He came to seek and save the lost and when they realized that this is who we are, they have bought in and jumped in and are reaching out to lost people and teaching others to do the same. And so, pastors, be patient and church members if you're struggling and hurting man, that's hard, but this is the call, this is what we're meant to do and be, and if your church isn't reaching out to the lost, spend some time and write a note to your pastor and say, hey, can we start to reach out more to our community? I think we need to get into this. This is something that is the heart of Jesus, and how can I help you do it?

Speaker 3: 1:05:13

Wow, so good yeah. So good, so good yeah.

Speaker 1: 1:05:19

So, Kevin, if people want to follow you, get those resources, start implementing this stuff. What's the best way for them to do so?

Speaker 2: 1:05:28

Yeah, so I'm not a social media guy so I don't have the traditional following type stuff. But if you go to our website that's the best way to do that organicoutreachorg or com and just to register. There's no cost. You just register by giving your email address, put your name in there, pick a word you know for your pastor. There's a password, but just pick your own name or something very simple, because no one's going to break in to steal your evangelism stuff, trust me, but get an account for you. You can get an account for your church and try one of the pathways A couple you're going to click and say coming soon. That doesn't mean in 20 years, that means the next two or three months, but there's some that are already set up. Begin to look at that. Do the, do this the assessment, the spiritual growth assessment and check your own markers out and and uh and.

Speaker 2: 1:06:13

If you want any of the books, just go on to. They're on Amazon, they're at Zonderman and uh and they're. I hope they're helpful and they're also. Most of them are in audio books and e-books as well as hard copy, and I tell people I don't care if you use the approach that I'm trying to put together a simple biblical pathway. I don't care if you use the pathway we put together. Just begin to love the lost, pray for the lost, walk with them, encourage your church to reach the lost, because this is the call of Jesus, and you will find more joy and more meaning and more richness in life when you're with Jesus on mission, when you grow in Jesus. You go with Jesus. So walk with him in God's name.